Curse

jazilla · Aug 11, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

While not as thorough as you(awesome post btw with very sound skill ideas with a few exceptions) I posted that Nature Rituals and Traps need and deserve a buff. The problem I see with it is that niche teams will absolutely crush if this happens. I would make the traps UNSTACKABLE so that they work for PvE teams that are playing the game as a group and not some gimmick.

I also agree that GW is never going to be how it used to be and it shouldn't. PvE only skills made sure of that but that is precisely what happens when you make skills that are solely for the purpose of moving copies off of store shelves. I don't really know of many sound PvE builds that aren't running with a full compliment of 3 PvE only skills and why would you? I think traps need a buff just to compete with YMLaD and FH! honestly. Shadow stepping and trapping would be a fun way to play and why not? This game is getting pretty long in the tooth and anything to freshen it up is cool with me.

Premium Unleaded · Aug 11, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

The Mesmer update changed 56 skills. All at once.

That's because Me/ had been continuously neglected for the most part in PvE since prophecies.

biofrog · Aug 11, 2010, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

.

Look, 99% of what you just said is the same as every other damn class.

CLASS is good at X, but bad at Y. I want Y fixed... rant rant rant.

There is so many bloody ways for a ranger to provide something to a team, and you've just glossed over every one of them just to focus on the negative aspects. The rituals help everyone. The traps lure & destroy mobs before the party even engages the bloody enemies. There's the decent armor and the best elemental armor in the game, the personal pet tank, the only skill in the game which actually stops resurrection, and the fact you are still in the back ranks of the party. You've got interruption skills, condition skills, AoE skills; even their primary attribute makes all skills use less energy!

The only problem with Rangers is they can do too much. In fact I think it may be one of a couple classes where you don't NEED a secondary class to be very effective.

So the solution is simple: Play what works, not what fails.

Here's something for you: My Elementalist, supposedly the 'damage dealers' of the game, used the Elite Savannah Heat skill on a level 30 hard mode warrior boss the other day. The damage dealt by this skill at 16 fire, over 5 seconds is:
21 + 42 + 63 + 84 + 105 = 315 damage, in 5 seconds
The damage dealt was:
3 + 6 + 10 + 13 + 16 = 48 damage, in 5 seconds

So what? I change my skills, I re-work it, and I might even end up in a completely different role in the party, eg: renewal healer. Lo and behold, we magically become a more effective team.

NerfHerder · Aug 11, 2010, 06:55 AM // 06:55

I like the preemptive rebuttles. Here are a few random thoughts I have about buffing the Ranger.

The main problem with Barrage right now is that(like the Dervish) the Sin can do it better. I would be cautious of buffing Marksmanship, as it could be easily exploited by other professions.

I think it would be nice if Expertise added x...y...z amount of damage to your next bow attack, or even attack skill(PvE only). That could solve alot right there.

Pets- I agree an improved AI would work wonders. Its annoying putting your pet on stay to pull and then putting them back to guard all the while trying to manipulate heros and stay alive/attack. Maybe pets could have a command called fetch, and they aggro your target then run back

. I like the idea of being able to que pet attack skills, It would definately give pets a boost in usage in PvE and PvP. And it would be nice if the attack my target function actually worked.

Nature Rituals- Reduce cast time in PvE, buff them and give them a higher energy cost. Change a few to only effect allies/party and change a few to only effect foes. Look what reducing cast time did for the Ritualist.

Traps- Reduce cast time and Buff in PvE, increase energy as needed.

Preperations- Reduce cast time and buff in PvE.

I still have fun taking my Ranger into PvP, so I dont think much needs to change there. And yes, because I like it that way is the extent of my research.

Desert Rose · Aug 11, 2010, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by biofrog

Here's something for you: My Elementalist, supposedly the 'damage dealers' of the game (...)

You are playing the wrong game: In Guild Wars physicals are the damage dealers, Eles are support.

On Topic:
- Bows/Markmanship are fine; bows aren't supposed to deal as much damage as spears or even melee weapons. Dual Shot, Triple Shot and maybe Forked Arrow could have their recharge time reduced though.
- Beast Mastery needs more a pet AI fix than skill changes.
- Markmanship and Beast Mastery both need many skill slots to function properly, that's why they have bad synergy; also, cross class synergy isn't a bad thing.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 11, 2010, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I like these! I really, really WANT a reason to play a ranger, but everytime I go to make one, it just seems so silly and pointless.

One of the biggest problems that effected Rangers I think is Paragons, oddly enough. Paragons aren't even a damage oriented class and their weapon does ONE damage lower as a base, with many of their attack skills clocking in at SAME DAMAGE RANGE.

Not to mention the fact that spears have a much lower attack spears, and are one handed, allowing the use of a shield.

Now, One could argue that Rangers aren't a damage oriented class either (though I'd argue right back that they're much moreso than the paragon), but what ARE rangers used for in general?

-Interuption. Done better by Mesmers, though Rangers were indirectly buffed in this manor by their update.
-Spreading Conditions. Mostly worthless in PvE, seeing as most conditions save Blind and Daze are throw-away. BHA is decent, but there is so much focus on the ranger to spread conditions that this leads to a rather massive hole playing ranger in PvE.
-Pets. Buffing the skills was really good, but many have called for a buff in AI, and many reasons have been thrown around.
-Nature Rituals....suck, for the most part. Even the elite ones aren't worthwhile.

I'm curious as to specific points people have for Rangers being fine? I'd love to hear them, because I can't see it.

"Why shouldn't Rangers be good at dealing damage?" is a question I wonder often. I think the issue is that Rangers are fundamentally forced into trying to play a damage role because they don't support well, if at all, with anything else.

call me greedy, but I'd much rather have my cake and eat it too. Make Rangers good at the support they were meant to do, and give them build options to kick ass when they need to as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Bows/Markmanship are fine; bows aren't supposed to deal as much damage as spears or even melee weapons

Why not? Melee weapons I can see, but Spears? Why should a two-handed, much slower weapon do less damage than a one-handed weapon from a support class?

biofrog · Aug 11, 2010, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

You are playing the wrong game: In Guild Wars physicals are the damage dealers, Eles are support.

Not pre-hard mode they weren't

Perhaps you didn't read my last sentence, to quote myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by biofrog

So what? I change my skills, I re-work it, and I might even end up in a completely different role in the party, eg: renewal healer. Lo and behold, we magically become a more effective team.

You want a better ranger, then make a better ranger. Try mix and matching some skills.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 11, 2010, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by biofrog

Words...

So you see nothing fundamentally wrong with an elementalist, a damage/support class, forced to take on the roll of a healer to be effective?

biofrog · Aug 11, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I'm curious as to specific points people have for Rangers being fine? I'd love to hear them, because I can't see it.

Well I listed a bunch above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

"Why shouldn't Rangers be good at dealing damage?" is a question I wonder often.

If you have every class being good at everything, where's the uniqueness, the disparity in classes, the flair, the fun! Paper, Rock, Scissors! I'm really interested to see how GW2 handles this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Why not? Melee weapons I can see, but Spears? Why should a two-handed, much slower weapon do less damage than a one-handed weapon from a support class?

Rofl, you can't bring logistics into it.. or a falling giant flaming boulder from the sky would do more than 18 damage

biofrog · Aug 11, 2010, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

So you see nothing fundamentally wrong with an elementalist, a damage/support class, forced to take on the roll of a healer to be effective?

Forced!? Who is forced! I did it to be part of an effective team, because an elementalists energy pool works really well with a lot of healing skills.

If A beats B, you don't change B to overpower A.. You introduce C to beat A.

No one ever played Paper, Rock, Scissors, Shotgun!

Xsiriss · Aug 11, 2010, 11:34 AM // 11:34

A lot of valid points,before people start trolling. With all the nerfs to rangers over the past couple of years (which were of course needed for PvP), they've kind of been left out for PvE. I personally find myself rollling either the same pet spear spammer, splinter barrage or IA bomber with the same skills.

There needs to be a balance however, simply adding aoe doesn't cut it. For example with glass arrows, make it deal aoe damage on block, making it inherantly aoe doesn't make too much sense. Or for example with your Magebane suggestion, adding a shorter recharge time and +damage against enchanted/hexed foes would be more reasonable.

I personally think traps and nature rituals are a lost cause, as to use them you'll need to spec pretty purely into them. The results are gimmicky at best. It'd be much better to focus on the pure damage/condition aspect of rangers. Whereby rangers really do need good,non-elite energy managent because expertise is not enough (I personally suggested something similar about body shot,seeing as it makes perfect sense).

That and of course the possiblity of stacked preparations or being able to use them more (ie with Barrage/volley).

Overall the points are totally valid /signed

zwei2stein · Aug 11, 2010, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Rangers have best physical multi-attacks in game. Game built about overbuffing physical damage.

Be it Volley/Splinter spam or Trippe shot/MoP activation or any other flavor of physical buff and attack making use of it, typical ranger has more than enough to bring to table in team where people cooperate and match builds.

Smart players take two ranger heroes, splinter and some curses and face little problems with anything (pew pew pew... ).

gremlin · Aug 11, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

to the op

Its going to take me a fair time to read through and mull over your post but I do agree with at least two points.

Rangers do need a major rethink and unfortunately I doubt there are the resources or the will to do it.

Secondly where you say the rangers need a niche something they do far better than any other class.
I agree and have thought and said this before, all the classes should have their important niche skills in their primary track.

That way each class will always do their basic thing better than any other class because the other classes cannot put any points into that track.

Makes total sense to me.
Then all the classes would have their place in parties.

anyway if the thread is still active tomorrow I will post then after thinking on your ideas.

AlCapwn · Aug 11, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

As a Ranger 95% of the time for the last 4 1/2 years, I can fully say I support the idea of an update to Rangers(for PvE). I find myself using secondary profession builds basically all the time rather than bows or any other useless ranger skills. And so....

/signed

dancing gnome · Aug 11, 2010, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Ranger doesn't need re-vamping.
It works just fine for me and pretty much everyone else that plays as a Ranger.
Learn how to play as a Ranger before posting, and we wouldn't have this un-needed thread.

As a ranger main I completely disagree. It's possible to play every class in the game in a way which is successful, his argument doesn't dispute that being the case for the ranger.

The ranger class suffers from the affliction that mosts classes do in GW - it was balanced for PvP while PvE moved further and further away from it resulting in a couple niche builds and garbage skills filling up your options.

Seriously, nature rituals are a huge mistake and are almost never used by any experienced players unless it's a niche situation. AoE damage is negligible compared to other classes (even more so without a ritualist skill 9 out of 10 groups won't let you join unless you bring it).

The way GW is balanced with the dual class system and the joint PvE and PvP has resulted in a class which had it's capabilities and options constantly cut off to the point of inferiority, (all classes suffer from this). When you constantly nerf a profession for 3-4 years and suddenly split the skills without a dramatic revamp of the previously nerfed skill options (such as we saw with warrior's hammer and tactics lines, ritualist's channelling and communing lines and the entire mesmer class) you end up with an open door to solving the problem without actually walking through it.

All of the problems he identified for the ranger are real problems. Nature rituals do suck, DPS is low with the exception of one or two builds which don't even use ranger DPS, traps are not congruent with active PvE objectives and pet AI is some of the worst in any game out there.

It's for these reasons I cringed when I read about the return of traps and nature rituals in GW2 - they were horribly bad in GW1 and simply didn't work as enjoyable and fun options for the class. These are real problems facing a troubled class and they really deserve to be looked at by the legacy team.

Anyone can successfully complete shit in GW - with a party of 8 heroes and henchmen all a ranger needs to do is ping a target and it will likely die in a few seconds. This doesn't mean the class isn't broken and it doesn't mean you are a good player. With the exception of areas where splinter/barrage is incredibly useful (usually later on in the game where all other ranger options are incredibly bad) I usually feel like as a ranger in my party, I'm not pulling my weight because for a class with so many skills, the effective options are severely limited.

Desert Rose · Aug 11, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

"Why shouldn't Rangers be good at dealing damage?" is a question I wonder often. I think the issue is that Rangers are fundamentally forced into trying to play a damage role because they don't support well, if at all, with anything else.

call me greedy, but I'd much rather have my cake and eat it too. Make Rangers good at the support they were meant to do, and give them build options to kick ass when they need to as well.

Well, bows should not be not good at dealing damage, not Rangers themselves; I would like to see that Beast Mastery becomes a valid damage attribute.

Quote:

Why not? Melee weapons I can see, but Spears? Why should a two-handed, much slower weapon do less damage than a one-handed weapon from a support class?

I must admit I have not declared myself very precisely. Ranged weapons should not deal as much damage as a melee weapon, spears are horribly broken and deal far to much damage, please don't use them for comparison.
I might be standing alone with this, but for me the existing of one broken mechanic doesn't justify the implementation of another one.

Laraja · Aug 11, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perilay Elkhorn

Well thought out and 100% correct.
I dont think that I have used my ranger in ages. It is tough to even get a pug for ZM|ZB~!
I hope I can dust of my Ranger's mask soon...

OP: Impressive post. It was articulate (rare in this forum) very well written, excellently thought-out and organized.

I've stopped playing my beloved ranger for the reason bolded above. It's difficult to get in a PuG with my ranger. There are a few exceptions, but those are dwindling. Sure, I have a nice set of heros on my ranger and I can go solo, but if I wanted to play solo I'd play Oblivion.

Unfortunately, I'm just not seeing any love directed toward the rangers any time soon.

Quaker · Aug 11, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Stay tuned folks! Next week it's the "Warriors need a buff!" rant, followed by Necros, and continuing each week with a new class until we get back around to Dervishes.

Vogon · Aug 11, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Nice post.
Now that my Necro build is improved I will use the advice here to see if my Ranger/Ele can PvE as well as my War or Sin. In PvE heros help balance out the party, so I will see how well my ranger can work in a team.

Commander Kanen · Aug 11, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Dervish and paragons need more work than ranger ever does/did. Nothing wrong with rangers.

Rangers have good survivability and good with all kinds of physical weapons.

Shure some skills suck but then again they do with most classes.

Leave ranger alone imo